simon
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Post by simon on Jul 20, 2015 14:46:06 GMT -5
I have been snooping the site now and then to see how the site is getting on since finding the link on rotkgame and what I discovered was that this would be another rotkgame, looking like S5 <3 while also adding more ROTKXI features so I was curious about them as I have been playing ROTKXI again lately and what I notice with some character are their skills (or perks as they were applied in KW:C), so just wondering if this is incorporated at all, if not as a character skill/perk but obtainable or applicable with an item maybe? believe they were incoporated in S7 somewhat under Unique skills so wonder if this plays a part in this season?
Skills aside, also wanted to ask about magic use, which we particularly see in ROTKXI with the Zhang brothers with Sorcery, Thunder and Lightning. Each of which are offensive, but maybe defensive could work too, like healing or bringing up a defensive 'phantom' unit, number dependant on character (or to prevent a PC of 100 LED bring up a larger unit, unit having a max that isn't too big - the thought being somewhat what we see in DW Games when phantoms appear in corners when enter area where Zhang Jiao is) or based on troops PC has so like a clone copy. Understand if would not work but thought I'd ask and be the first to breathe some life into this board XD
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Post by TheRedArmy on Jul 20, 2015 23:01:13 GMT -5
On Skills - Right now it looks like we're going with a relatively simple skill tier system. There are a few possibilities for special skills like you mention, but I'm not sure if we're going to do something like that right now. We are trying out a few new things, and trying to get the ball rolling, so expect season 1 to be a sort of "Beta" - things may change as we go along, and skills are subject to that too. Getting ideas for something like Unique skills isn't too hard, but keeping them balanced against one another is. There will be a few ways to get unique benefits, though, so one should keep their eyes open for that.
Magic is always a contentious thing. It's really a matter of play-style and preference, so there's not really a "right answer" for that. People who like the mystique and basically super-human abilities of some kind or another(Zhang Fei's yell at Chang Ban, Zhuge Liang's basically supernatural predictive and mental abilities), will really want to play up the extraordinary angle and see their characters replicate some of the feats in the novel. That's completely valid. Then there are others that prefer the more historical view of things - where Zhang Jiao was never mystical, only charismatic, and where ZGL can't control the winds, he only knows weather patterns really well. That's also a totally legitimate and valid outlook.
I mean, there have always been a few things that seem magical to me in the skill system. The doctor skill heals hundreds of troops at a time - hard not to see that as magical. We have "wind" and "whirlpool" skills, which are kind of like "light magic" abilities. So it's not like we're completely divorced from magic in the first place. The biggest issue with many magical effects that we see in the video games, for instance, is balancing them when you use them against other players.
Take the most famous of all the "Lightning" skill, which lets you (surprise), call down a bolt of lightning to strike your enemies. In the video games, when it works, it usually causes lots of damage, creates fire on spaces affected, and confuses units struck by the blast. That's really powerful. When we have top-tier skills that is just "Confuse an enemy", doing all that with one skill is way too strong. So, balance it out, you say. But it's still not that simple. For one, it would have to have a range limit, instead of basically limitless like it has been in the past (had a range in ROTK XI, I know). It would have to deal little damage, probably couldn't start fires, and if it confused units, it would already be too strong. So it wouldn't even look like the "Lightning" skill from the game.
For what it's worth, I fall pretty firmly in the "historical" camp. I like learning about how the characters actually were and what they did. Like how Liu Bei is actually a really competent commander; how ZGL was probably a better administrator than commander, and how Zhang He was probably the best general Wei had after Cao Cao. It's only natural that when I approach a game like this, I approach it from a historical perspective, and don't really take magic into the equation. Others may feel differently, but those are my thoughts.
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simon
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Post by simon on Jul 21, 2015 18:28:40 GMT -5
Just to clarify that my points are merely and purely as a result from intel from the game of what to expect, so was just curious what aspects of additional RTKXI would be added after playing the game again, as I understand from a game perspective and modding perspective of how to control and how it will work, whether it fair and whether OP or not. For this reason concerning sorcery and lighting, I totally get how powerful it can be which is why I have not gone into it, as they are branches of offensive magic which can get out of hand. It is why I suggested more defensive, healing which is already in play from the 'Doctor' skill that you mentioned, but my suggestion for balancing out is in regards to a 'phantom' unit as opposed to controlling lightning and how such offensive magic would impact, due to the difficulties of putting into game mechanics. My suggestions for the incorporation of the 'phantom' unit, to save reading the first post, is (i) that the number of how many depends on the LED of the PC, (ii) each unit has a max so could surround four corners like it does in DW games for Zhang Jiao, to save having one massive 'phantom' unit to prevent OP problems, (iii) number could be based on troops of the PC as opposed to LED so that it is an essential clone/copy - the idea being a WIP so let you guys do the maths if like, but I was thinking with the fact the site is going with 'a relatively simple skill tier system', maybe the simpliest way of having 'phantoms' disappear without building an altar, is simple to have a unit attack the PC or enter the PC's ZoC - depending what kind of limitation to impose for overall gameplay. Branching off from what I said before in my opening with basing my points on the RTKXI game, being the play-style I have in mind for a sim, but generally I too like 'historical' or 'semi-historical' rather, as each character is presented with different situations and all in all, I like a story behind it to see how Cao Cao got from A to B for example, but thinking of the audience, DW and ROTK are likely to be the references for new players. Not that I'm looking to be Zhang Jiao, but he's mostly portrayed as having abilities given to him which he passes on to his brothers. I can work with a 'historical' angle or not, myself personally, but does help where magic is concerned for a line to be drawn where incorporated. To move away from magic and onto the skills, as look at some characters on RTKXI that allow more horses to be produced or consumption of food is none at ports to throw examples, or characters like Hao Zhao I think that protects against joint attacks...so look forward to seeing in the future and seeing these unique benefits you speak of Final thing to respond to from your reply, a 'season 1', so take it this would be a brand-new start, so would call the game 'season 1' as opposed to advertising it as S8?
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Post by Izzy on Jul 21, 2015 19:48:46 GMT -5
Yes, this RoTK site is not RoTKGame. Many mechanics are based on past seasons of RoTKGame, but it's more of a spiritual successor than a continuation of the same game. For all intents and purposes, RoTKGame has been retired. It gives the staff more freedom to change things, IMO, and doesn't drag down the site with a lengthy history to keep up with. As far as your suggestions: there aren't any unique skills proposed as of yet. I can give the mods a list of what we had worked with for S7 and my thoughts on them. If nothing else, we may be able to convert some of them into regular skills. Magic was never truly introduced on RoTKGame for one reason: certain admins didn't like it. Said admins aren't as influential right now, so you can make a good case for it. Generally, magic tends to be gimmicky and mostly luck-based though. Even in the base games, Lightning and other skills were more of a playful addition rather than something that added depth to the game. There are ways to pitch magic that wouldn't make it feel tacked-on.
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simon
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Post by simon on Aug 5, 2015 7:59:13 GMT -5
I have been giving it some thought about provincial benefits, which I enquired about in the shoutbox about some reward for gaining a province, and what comes to mind (not sure if something similar was discussed in rotkgame) is City Specialities which we see in RTKXI where some cities specialise in gold, some in harvest, some in horses, etc... to create a provincial bonus. Now I believe in one of the seasons, there was a skill or character multiplier for increased gold on payday or increased food, and I think something similar to that for a provincial bonus where a city that specialises in gold reaps in a bit extra, and if a city specialises in horses then more horses can be attainable. Why, this could apply generally if you wanted without gaining a province, but just some food for thought. If a city specialises in equipment, then could incorporate something like in RTKVIII where upon gaining a particular province, a new unit type is available for the ruler, Wuwei Cavalry as an example - but if not up for a different unit type, could just make Cavalry produced there slightly stronger than Cavalry made there (though would say, unless a separate unit type to distinguish between other Cavalry units, that this is in effect when the Cavalry in question fights in the respective province that they come from)
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Post by Izzy on Aug 5, 2015 19:50:15 GMT -5
We probably need to flesh the system out a bit more before we make decisions like that. Though we have a good grasp on how our units and battle system is going to work, we don't have specifics hammered down like we do with character stuff. There *is* room for your idea though. To give a sneak peak: it's looking like units will have stats that complement a person's stats. So a horse unit may deal more damage innately, at the cost of taking more damage, etc. We could have 'special' versions of the units have different versions (either better, or maybe even re-tooled, i.e. defensive horse units). No promises though
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Post by TheRedArmy on Aug 5, 2015 22:50:04 GMT -5
Yes, I also like the idea. A force having unique cavalry or archers based on their location (Liang/Yi) or improved commerce or harvesting (Si Li, some other place) is a nice way to give uniqueness to a force.
I'm personally very interested in giving forces different options for distinguishing them from other forces - kind of like the techniques from ROTK XI, but I feel like there's a way to implement them better than that. Provincial rewards are one way of doing that, but I also wonder if there's a superior method that I haven't encountered yet.
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